<?xml version="1.0"?>
<?xml-stylesheet type="text/css" href="http://en.gospeltranslations.org/w/skins/common/feed.css?239"?>
<feed xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom" xml:lang="en">
		<id>http://en.gospeltranslations.org/w/index.php?action=history&amp;feed=atom&amp;title=The_SBJT_Forum%3A_Retrospect_and_Prospect</id>
		<title>The SBJT Forum: Retrospect and Prospect - Revision history</title>
		<link rel="self" type="application/atom+xml" href="http://en.gospeltranslations.org/w/index.php?action=history&amp;feed=atom&amp;title=The_SBJT_Forum%3A_Retrospect_and_Prospect"/>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://en.gospeltranslations.org/w/index.php?title=The_SBJT_Forum:_Retrospect_and_Prospect&amp;action=history"/>
		<updated>2026-04-09T21:47:55Z</updated>
		<subtitle>Revision history for this page on the wiki</subtitle>
		<generator>MediaWiki 1.16alpha</generator>

	<entry>
		<id>http://en.gospeltranslations.org/w/index.php?title=The_SBJT_Forum:_Retrospect_and_Prospect&amp;diff=19401&amp;oldid=prev</id>
		<title>JoyaTeemer at 18:46, 20 May 2010</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://en.gospeltranslations.org/w/index.php?title=The_SBJT_Forum:_Retrospect_and_Prospect&amp;diff=19401&amp;oldid=prev"/>
				<updated>2010-05-20T18:46:15Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;table style=&quot;background-color: white; color:black;&quot;&gt;
			&lt;col class='diff-marker' /&gt;
			&lt;col class='diff-content' /&gt;
			&lt;col class='diff-marker' /&gt;
			&lt;col class='diff-content' /&gt;
		&lt;tr valign='top'&gt;
		&lt;td colspan='2' style=&quot;background-color: white; color:black;&quot;&gt;← Older revision&lt;/td&gt;
		&lt;td colspan='2' style=&quot;background-color: white; color:black;&quot;&gt;Revision as of 18:46, 20 May 2010&lt;/td&gt;
		&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot;&gt;Line 8:&lt;/td&gt;
&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot;&gt;Line 8:&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt; &lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;heavily-committed individuals. Their answers are presented in an order that hopefully&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt; &lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;heavily-committed individuals. Their answers are presented in an order that hopefully&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt; &lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;makes the forum read as much like a unified presentation as possible.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt; &lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;makes the forum read as much like a unified presentation as possible.&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt;+&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;color: red; font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt; &lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt; &lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt; &lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;'''SBJT: As an outside observer, what comments would you make on the conservative resurgence in the SBC during the last quarter-century?'''&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt; &lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;'''SBJT: As an outside observer, what comments would you make on the conservative resurgence in the SBC during the last quarter-century?'''&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt; &lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt; &lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt;-&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #ffa; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;D. A. Carson: Doubtless I am an “outside&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt;+&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #cfc; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins class=&quot;diffchange diffchange-inline&quot;&gt;'''&lt;/ins&gt;D. A. Carson:&lt;ins class=&quot;diffchange diffchange-inline&quot;&gt;''' &lt;/ins&gt;Doubtless I am an “outside&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt; &lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;observer” in the sense that I am not myself&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt; &lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;observer” in the sense that I am not myself&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt; &lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;a member of a church belonging to the&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class='diff-marker'&gt; &lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background: #eee; color:black; font-size: smaller;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;a member of a church belonging to the&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;!-- diff generator: internal 2026-04-09 21:47:56 --&gt;
&lt;/table&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JoyaTeemer</name></author>	</entry>

	<entry>
		<id>http://en.gospeltranslations.org/w/index.php?title=The_SBJT_Forum:_Retrospect_and_Prospect&amp;diff=19400&amp;oldid=prev</id>
		<title>JoyaTeemer: Created page with '{{info}}  ''Editor’s Note:'' Readers should be aware of the forum’s format. D. A. Carson, Paige Patterson, Mark Coppenger, Jerry A. Johnson, and Richard Land have been asked ...'</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://en.gospeltranslations.org/w/index.php?title=The_SBJT_Forum:_Retrospect_and_Prospect&amp;diff=19400&amp;oldid=prev"/>
				<updated>2010-05-20T18:42:29Z</updated>
		
		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Created page with &amp;#39;{{info}}  &amp;#39;&amp;#39;Editor’s Note:&amp;#39;&amp;#39; Readers should be aware of the forum’s format. D. A. Carson, Paige Patterson, Mark Coppenger, Jerry A. Johnson, and Richard Land have been asked ...&amp;#39;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;New page&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div&gt;{{info}}&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
''Editor’s Note:'' Readers should be aware of the forum’s format. D. A. Carson, Paige&lt;br /&gt;
Patterson, Mark Coppenger, Jerry A. Johnson, and Richard Land have been asked&lt;br /&gt;
specific questions to which they have provided written responses. These writers are not&lt;br /&gt;
responding to one another. The journal’s goal for the Forum is to provide significant&lt;br /&gt;
thinkers’ views on topics of interest without requiring lengthy articles from these&lt;br /&gt;
heavily-committed individuals. Their answers are presented in an order that hopefully&lt;br /&gt;
makes the forum read as much like a unified presentation as possible.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
'''SBJT: As an outside observer, what comments would you make on the conservative resurgence in the SBC during the last quarter-century?'''&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
D. A. Carson: Doubtless I am an “outside&lt;br /&gt;
observer” in the sense that I am not myself&lt;br /&gt;
a member of a church belonging to the&lt;br /&gt;
SBC. On the other hand, I am an ordained&lt;br /&gt;
Baptist minister, and have followed the&lt;br /&gt;
resurgence reasonably closely, both in&lt;br /&gt;
person and by scanning the histories that&lt;br /&gt;
both sides have produced. The observations&lt;br /&gt;
that seem most pertinent include&lt;br /&gt;
the following:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(1) This resurgence is not unique. Several&lt;br /&gt;
other denominations and associations&lt;br /&gt;
have followed a somewhat similar path.&lt;br /&gt;
The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod&lt;br /&gt;
was heading for a decline into systemic&lt;br /&gt;
liberalism, and in the mercy of God that&lt;br /&gt;
decline was halted. The old Baptist Union&lt;br /&gt;
of Ontario and Québec, after lurching&lt;br /&gt;
toward liberalism under the influence of&lt;br /&gt;
McMaster in the 1920s, gradually built up&lt;br /&gt;
the percentage of confessional pastors, and&lt;br /&gt;
about a dozen years ago voted itself ''out'' of&lt;br /&gt;
the World Council of Churches. Examples&lt;br /&gt;
in other countries come to mind. This&lt;br /&gt;
observation is not in any way meant to&lt;br /&gt;
denigrate the conservative resurgence in&lt;br /&gt;
the SBC. It is merely a way of reminding&lt;br /&gt;
ourselves that the preservation of the gospel&lt;br /&gt;
and the purifying of a denomination&lt;br /&gt;
are not unique phenomena: God’s grace&lt;br /&gt;
has been poured out in similar ways in the&lt;br /&gt;
past, and will doubtless be poured out in&lt;br /&gt;
similar ways in the future.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(2) The lines that were drawn were&lt;br /&gt;
muddied from the start. On the conservative&lt;br /&gt;
side, the most far-sighted leaders&lt;br /&gt;
understood that the fundamental issue&lt;br /&gt;
was the truthfulness and authority of&lt;br /&gt;
Scripture, but some voices tried to make&lt;br /&gt;
a handful of other issues touchstones as&lt;br /&gt;
well. More disturbingly, on the moderate&lt;br /&gt;
side, not a few well-meaning pastors&lt;br /&gt;
and other leaders, who themselves were&lt;br /&gt;
entirely orthodox, viewed the conservatives&lt;br /&gt;
as nothing more than a nasty group&lt;br /&gt;
of power-hungry tyrants whose ostensibly&lt;br /&gt;
theological motives were a cover-up&lt;br /&gt;
for naked greed, whose asseverations of&lt;br /&gt;
theological commitment merely masked&lt;br /&gt;
their native belligerence. These moderates&lt;br /&gt;
knew many nice people in the moderate&lt;br /&gt;
camp, and could not believe that they&lt;br /&gt;
were denying the truth in any fundamental&lt;br /&gt;
way.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I must say that on this score I am&lt;br /&gt;
entirely aligned with the conservatives.&lt;br /&gt;
Had it been nothing but a power grab&lt;br /&gt;
by disgruntled right-wingers who were&lt;br /&gt;
irked by the fact that they were sidelined,&lt;br /&gt;
I would not assess things this way. But&lt;br /&gt;
throughout the period of the conflict, I&lt;br /&gt;
scanned the journals and many of the&lt;br /&gt;
books put out by SBC seminaries and&lt;br /&gt;
other organs, and I was deeply disturbed&lt;br /&gt;
by the theological and critical drift. In&lt;br /&gt;
the mid-1980s, I was asked to give some&lt;br /&gt;
lectures at one of the leading SBC seminaries—&lt;br /&gt;
asked, it must be said, not by the&lt;br /&gt;
faculty, who at that juncture ''never'' invited&lt;br /&gt;
a conservative like me, but by a caucus&lt;br /&gt;
of evangelical students on that campus.&lt;br /&gt;
I was told by one of the faculty members&lt;br /&gt;
that at that institution there were only two&lt;br /&gt;
members of the faculty (out of about fifty)&lt;br /&gt;
who considered themselves to be inerrantists.&lt;br /&gt;
Several students told me of one&lt;br /&gt;
faculty member who, after introducing&lt;br /&gt;
his classes to the thought of Rudolf Bultmann,&lt;br /&gt;
would regularly ask, “So whose&lt;br /&gt;
understanding of the resurrection of Jesus&lt;br /&gt;
is closest to getting things right—Paul’s,&lt;br /&gt;
or Bultmann’s?” In recent years, classes&lt;br /&gt;
had been voting about 65 percent in favor&lt;br /&gt;
of Bultmann. I could multiply reports of&lt;br /&gt;
this sort. Such stances were widespread,&lt;br /&gt;
virtually unchecked, and growing. The&lt;br /&gt;
issues were not marginal or merely personal.&lt;br /&gt;
They very often had to do with&lt;br /&gt;
the non-negotiable fundamentals of the&lt;br /&gt;
faith. Those moderates who were personally&lt;br /&gt;
orthodox but who failed to see these&lt;br /&gt;
dangers were either extraordinarily illinformed&lt;br /&gt;
or extraordinarily blind to the&lt;br /&gt;
dangers.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(3) In the years since the conservative&lt;br /&gt;
resurgence, the most frequent charge leveled&lt;br /&gt;
by the moderate organs runs something&lt;br /&gt;
like this: The conservatives have&lt;br /&gt;
caused the SBC to lurch toward the right,&lt;br /&gt;
especially in the matter of soul-liberty.&lt;br /&gt;
Baptists have always cherished the freedom&lt;br /&gt;
to make up their own minds, to avoid&lt;br /&gt;
hierarchies and (many would say) creeds&lt;br /&gt;
that cripple the principle of soul-liberty.&lt;br /&gt;
Thus in the name of Baptist orthodoxy,&lt;br /&gt;
the conservatives have sacrificed the most&lt;br /&gt;
fundamental Baptist principle, constraining&lt;br /&gt;
soul-liberty by a bunch of politically&lt;br /&gt;
astute demagogues.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
But this is a bit like Brian McLaren trying&lt;br /&gt;
to convince us he is Reformed. He is&lt;br /&gt;
Reformed, he says, because he holds to the&lt;br /&gt;
Reformation principle of semper reformandum:&lt;br /&gt;
the church must always be reforming&lt;br /&gt;
itself under the Word. True enough. But&lt;br /&gt;
he acts as if this principle is a ''sufficient''&lt;br /&gt;
definition of what belongs to the Reformation.&lt;br /&gt;
At no point, however, does McLaren&lt;br /&gt;
espouse the five ''solas'' of the Reformation,&lt;br /&gt;
or think through how these ''solas'' relate to&lt;br /&gt;
each other and to the principle of ''semper reformandum''. By espousing just one principle&lt;br /&gt;
of the Reformation, and making it&lt;br /&gt;
the ''sufficient'' definition of the Reformation,&lt;br /&gt;
while ignoring or even denying the five&lt;br /&gt;
''solas'' so characteristic of the Reformation,&lt;br /&gt;
McLaren succeeds in simultaneously disowning&lt;br /&gt;
the Reformation while claiming&lt;br /&gt;
to be Reformed. He is, of course, at perfect&lt;br /&gt;
liberty to espouse anything he likes, but&lt;br /&gt;
simple integrity should warn him not to&lt;br /&gt;
claim he is Reformed while he cuts his&lt;br /&gt;
independent swath.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
So also with the moderates who make&lt;br /&gt;
soul-liberty the ''sufficient'' criterion of&lt;br /&gt;
what a Baptist is. Historically, Baptists&lt;br /&gt;
stand in the tradition of the Reformation,&lt;br /&gt;
but, belonging as we do to the believers-&lt;br /&gt;
church tradition (i.e., we hold that&lt;br /&gt;
the local church should be made up of&lt;br /&gt;
regenerate, baptized believers), we are&lt;br /&gt;
inclined to be suspicious alike of state&lt;br /&gt;
churches and of churches that are undisciplined&lt;br /&gt;
or that wish to mingle the openly&lt;br /&gt;
regenerate with those who merely claim&lt;br /&gt;
to belong to the covenant community&lt;br /&gt;
(as in the Presbyterian tradition). Many&lt;br /&gt;
Baptists have adopted creeds without&lt;br /&gt;
feeling that soul-liberty was thereby&lt;br /&gt;
jeopardized: many Baptists in England&lt;br /&gt;
in the 1640s bound themselves together&lt;br /&gt;
under a creed, and many Baptists adopted&lt;br /&gt;
the famous 1689 Confession. It would be&lt;br /&gt;
easy to multiply such examples. In such&lt;br /&gt;
a heritage, soul-liberty was suspicious of&lt;br /&gt;
an improper mingling of church and state,&lt;br /&gt;
and of hierarchialism that imposed order&lt;br /&gt;
but that was careless about regeneration.&lt;br /&gt;
The contemporary version espoused by&lt;br /&gt;
moderates, however, wants to elevate&lt;br /&gt;
soul-liberty to the role of ''sufficient'' definition&lt;br /&gt;
of a Baptist, and ties it to freedom&lt;br /&gt;
from all creeds. Taken consistently, that&lt;br /&gt;
would mean that a Baptist could disown&lt;br /&gt;
the deity of Christ, feel uncomfortable&lt;br /&gt;
about his resurrection, conclude that&lt;br /&gt;
Christ’s death on the cross did not atone&lt;br /&gt;
for sin, deny the truthfulness and authority&lt;br /&gt;
of God’s written revelation, deny the&lt;br /&gt;
Trinity, and so forth, and still be called a&lt;br /&gt;
Baptist. Not for a moment am I suggesting&lt;br /&gt;
that all SBC moderates go down such&lt;br /&gt;
paths. But if they protest that, as Baptists,&lt;br /&gt;
they ''do'' believe such fundamental truths&lt;br /&gt;
are bound up with what it means to be a&lt;br /&gt;
Christian, then of course they ''do'' adopt&lt;br /&gt;
a creed, whether written or un-written.&lt;br /&gt;
But if they say that soul-liberty trumps all&lt;br /&gt;
such credal affirmations, then of course&lt;br /&gt;
they are saying that their understanding&lt;br /&gt;
of soul-liberty, which in their view ''defines''&lt;br /&gt;
Baptist, is more fundamental than what&lt;br /&gt;
makes a person a Christian. This is such&lt;br /&gt;
egregious silliness that it deserves to be&lt;br /&gt;
exposed wherever it rears its head.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(4) On the other hand, it is desperately&lt;br /&gt;
important for the conservatives within&lt;br /&gt;
the SBC, who have so largely triumphed,&lt;br /&gt;
to avoid several mistakes, some of which&lt;br /&gt;
are already present. (a) Eschew triumphalism.&lt;br /&gt;
If God in his mercy has raised&lt;br /&gt;
up leaders who have seen what needs to&lt;br /&gt;
be done, if God in his mercy has granted&lt;br /&gt;
them favor with the messengers year after&lt;br /&gt;
year, if God has enabled confessional&lt;br /&gt;
voices to regain the initiative, this ought&lt;br /&gt;
to be an occasion for deep thanksgiving,&lt;br /&gt;
renewed repentance, and humility of&lt;br /&gt;
mind. (b) Avoid a swing to the cultural&lt;br /&gt;
right. Not every issue on the right-wing&lt;br /&gt;
of our culture, or on the right-wing of&lt;br /&gt;
evangelicalism, is consistent with biblical&lt;br /&gt;
thought. Many are; some are not. But&lt;br /&gt;
a swing to the cultural right begins to&lt;br /&gt;
align one’s commitment to the Bible with&lt;br /&gt;
every right-wing cultural item that comes&lt;br /&gt;
along. Leaders begin to play games of&lt;br /&gt;
“I’m more conservative than you.” (c) Let&lt;br /&gt;
the leaders become increasingly careful&lt;br /&gt;
about the extent to which their public&lt;br /&gt;
utterances are negative. In any movement&lt;br /&gt;
of resurgence, there is a great deal&lt;br /&gt;
that must be corrected, so of course there&lt;br /&gt;
are lots of negative things to be said. The&lt;br /&gt;
Reformers had to expose the corruption&lt;br /&gt;
of the indulgences. But a couple of centuries&lt;br /&gt;
later, Richard Baxter was right when&lt;br /&gt;
he insisted that if anyone brings a false&lt;br /&gt;
doctrine of justification into your area,&lt;br /&gt;
your ''first'' responsible is to “preach up”&lt;br /&gt;
(his expression) justification better than&lt;br /&gt;
he. Within that framework, it is much&lt;br /&gt;
easier to expose false stances on justification.&lt;br /&gt;
So also today: God knows there are&lt;br /&gt;
plenty of errors and dangers around, and&lt;br /&gt;
we need clear thinking about them and in&lt;br /&gt;
many cases warnings against them. But&lt;br /&gt;
leaders who have earned their spurs by&lt;br /&gt;
correcting things are in grave danger of&lt;br /&gt;
thinking that our ''primary'' task is correcting and warning, and end up sounding&lt;br /&gt;
like perennial self-righteous and angry&lt;br /&gt;
critics. Our ''first'' obligation is to unpack&lt;br /&gt;
the glories of the gospel, the wonders of&lt;br /&gt;
God and his self-disclosure, the privilege&lt;br /&gt;
and pleasure of sins forgiven, the power&lt;br /&gt;
of the Spirit, the anticipation of the glory&lt;br /&gt;
to come, and much more of the same.&lt;br /&gt;
Unless our warnings are surrounded by&lt;br /&gt;
sheer delight in God and his truth, we&lt;br /&gt;
ourselves become corroded, and invite a&lt;br /&gt;
nasty backlash with deleterious results&lt;br /&gt;
for years to come.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
(5) And finally: we should be grateful&lt;br /&gt;
to God for those who tried to be faithful to&lt;br /&gt;
God and his Word during the years when&lt;br /&gt;
the decline seemed irreversible. I have a&lt;br /&gt;
friend, a pastor in New York, who likes to&lt;br /&gt;
say, “For the Christian, optimism is naive,&lt;br /&gt;
but pessimism is atheistic.” Just so.&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>JoyaTeemer</name></author>	</entry>

	</feed>